Episode 3 - The Pale Horse

📚 Episode Focus: Agatha Christie's The Pale Horse (1961) and witchcraft with Jade M Loren.

• 🖋️ Mark Easterbrook's writer’s block leads to a mysterious death investigation.
• 🏠 Mark visits the Pale Horse, meeting witches.

🧙 Witchcraft Insights with Jade M Loren:

• 🌟 Witchcraft is a practice, not necessarily a religion.
• ☕ Everyday actions, like stirring coffee with intention, can be witchcraft.

🕵️‍♂️ True Crime Case: The Buffington bug.

• 🧪 Graham Young poisoned coworkers with thallium.

📚 Final Thoughts:

• 🔮 Spells: Debate on intention vs. ingredients.
• ⚗️ Witchcraft and science: Belief that science will one day explain witchcraft.

Follow Jade on social media for more mystical musings: @jademloren and @wellingtonwitch.

@abitofachristie on X, IG, YouTube, Tumblr, Reddit and Facebook.
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Transcript

Hazel Jones (00:00:05) - Hello and welcome to episode three. Today we'll be focusing on another amazing Agatha Christie novel, The Pale Horse. Our guest, Jade M Loren, will be helping us to understand all things witchcraft, and we explored the true crime story of the Buffington book. I'm Hazel Jones, and this is a bit of a Christie. The Pale Horse is one of Agatha Christie's later novels, with it first being published in 1961. The book contains themes of the supernatural and the changing culture and fashions as we approach the era known as the Swinging 60s. So, as usual, let's take a look at the year of publication and find out what 1961 was really like. John F Kennedy is sworn in as American President and he gives his inauguration speech. This is also the year that work would begin building his convertible car, which would drive through the streets of Dallas, and two years later, there would be fatal consequences.

Soundbite 1 (00:01:19) - At the cavern.

Hazel Jones (00:01:20) - When the Beatles returned to Liverpool from their tour of Hamburg and play under their name at the Cavern Club for the first time.

Hazel Jones (00:01:28) - Adolf Eichmann is brought to trial in Jerusalem for war crimes, and is found guilty and sentenced to death. Barbie gets a boyfriend as the Ken doll is introduced in America.

Soundbite 2 (00:01:42) - Liftoff will start.

Soundbite 3 (00:01:43) - In T minus 10s.

Hazel Jones (00:01:46) - Yuri Gagarin becomes the first human in space orbiting around the Earth before parachuting back. Tottenham Hotspur win the First Division and the FA Cup to claim a famous double. A Civil Rights Movement Freedom Riders bus is firebombed in Alabama and the Ku Klux Klan beat the protesters. Baseball legend Ty Cobb dies in Atlanta, aged 74. Construction of the Berlin Wall begins. West Side Story and Breakfast at Tiffany's, starring Audrey Hepburn, was released in this year. Famous book catch 22 by Joseph Heller is published. And American involvement in Vietnam officially starts when 400 members of the army are deployed to Saigon. Let's now have a look at the plot of our story, The Pale Horse. Today we are without the assistance of Poirot, Miss Marple, or even Tommy and Tuppence. But have no fear. Ariadne Oliver makes an appearance during the story to give us that familiar face.

Hazel Jones (00:03:08) - Our journey begins with author and protagonist Mark Easterbrook suffering from writer's block. He tries to fuel his body, but on checking the fridge, it is bare. The only alternative go out for something to eat. Whilst at Luigi's Coffee Bar, he witnesses an altercation between two girls, one who rips the hair straight out of the other's head. On speaking with the owner. It seemed that the woman who had her hair ripped out was the affluent beatnik Tomasino Tuckerton. The story flips now to another part of London and we next join Father Gorman, a Catholic priest who is being called to perform the last rites of a woman called Mrs. Davis. She is keen to confess before she meets her maker. The confession is not revealed to the reader, and on leaving the deceased Mrs. Davis father Gorman tucks a piece of paper containing some names into his shoe. As he walks back to the rectory. He is tragically killed. Days later, Mark Easterbrook sees the death notice for Thomasina Tuckerton at dinner with his friend Poppy. The pale horse is mentioned.

Hazel Jones (00:04:32) - It seems to be a place where death can be arranged. This makes Mark suspicious. And finally, the list of names that was hidden in Father Gorman's shoe is revealed. Two names which stand out to Mark are that of Thomasina Tuckerton, but also of somebody called Heathcote du Bois, which happens to be the name of his godmother. This list of names raises more questions than it solves, and so Mark decides to visit the village of Much Deeping, where the Pale Horse happens to be our dear friend Ariadne. Oliver makes sure she joins Mark on his exploration. The pair visit the Pale Horse and there they meet three witches. One of them, a lady called Caesar Grey, speaks to them about the concept of killing from a distance. She subtly suggests that she may have the power to do this. So I wanted to know, is this really possible? Who better to ask than witch and friend of the show? Jade M Lauren.

Jade M Loren (00:05:43) - Yeah, my name is Jade M Loren. I am an aspiring author of fantasy in all shapes and forms.

Jade M Loren (00:05:49) - I'm also a practicing witch, I'm a freelance editor, tarot reader, copy editor, proof reader, all the editors and ers at the end. and I'm really excited to be on here because my mum actually loved Agatha Christie and she had all of her books, so it just seemed really fitting when I got the invitation to come here, so thank you for that.

Hazel Jones (00:06:10) - No, it is our absolute pleasure to have you here, Jade. So, as you know, we're discussing the Agatha Christie book, The Pale Horse, and we're talking about witchcraft, which is something that you know a lot about. Before we start, I want to make sure I'm getting the terms correct. Is witchcraft the right term to use, or should I be using another term?

Jade M Loren (00:06:32) - And as far as I am concerned, I don't claim ever to speak on behalf of all which kind. Yes, witchcraft is the correct term. The meaning can vary wildly depending on media and particular religions. But yeah, again, not to speak for all witches, but I don't think anyone would be offended who does witchcraft for it to be called that.

Jade M Loren (00:06:53) - It is the practice of witchcraft. It is literally a craft. So yeah, something that we do and it's not necessarily a bad word, it's just a fact, really.

Hazel Jones (00:07:04) - I have actually heard the term the craft before, but what does it actually mean?

Jade M Loren (00:07:09) - It's the physical embodiment of witchcraft. And I am the most basic witch ever. I am very low maintenance. You frequently, for instance, if you go on something called WitchTok on TikTok, you see this elaborate setup, this beautiful aesthetic. Every jar is perfectly named, and that's fine if that's what they want to do. But to me, it's just living mindfully, knowing that we are connected to something greater. And it's more than just an aesthetic. The more you, the deeper you go into something, the more it becomes personalized to you. And again, I suppose that we can talk about it in greater detail later, but it is very unique to individuals. It's not always seen as a religious aspect to people who choose to go down the witchcraft path.

Jade M Loren (00:08:05) - And to me, yeah, media is kind of tainted some things of what it is and the expectations. But for me, like I say, being very basic, it's just sitting with a cup of coffee and maybe stirring intention into that coffee in the morning, like, if you go clockwise, for instance, a good tip if you go clockwise, if you're stirring a good intention into there, it's positivity if you stir it the other way. so counter clockwise, you can get rid of any negativity that you may be feeling. So every little action that you do can, if it's done with intention, can be made into witchcraft. And to be honest, many people do it every birthday when they make a wish on the candle and they blow it out. That is the most simplest form and possibly sneakiest form of witchcraft, because everybody has done something like that before. So yeah, that's kind of it's just basically what it is for me.

Hazel Jones (00:09:01) - Some people consider witchcraft a religion, don't they? How do you see it?

Jade M Loren (00:09:06) - Is not a religion itself.

Jade M Loren (00:09:08) - it's definitely a craft. If it's a physical act of doing witchy stuff. and similarly with Wicca. so you may have guardian witches and stuff like that, but those are religions closely linked to witchcraft. But not all witches or Wiccan, and not all Wiccans are witches. They can choose to have the belief, but not do any spells at all. so they follow the rule of three, which is don't harm anybody or you'll get it back threefold. Similar to paganism as well. Not all pagans consider themselves witches at all or do any witchcraft. They don't participate. But the practical side of what I believe in is witchcraft, and I don't see myself as part of a religion. The way I've approached it is very much, probably the older ways of doing it, before it became sort of a religion. It's more folky. It's the things that you do every single day.

Hazel Jones (00:09:58) - So that's really interesting with the stirring, the tea in the morning. Are there other things that we might be doing every day related to witchcraft that we perhaps just don't know about?

Jade M Loren (00:10:09) - Well, everybody knows the image of a witch in a broom and sweeping as long had, a tradition in getting rid of negativity from a household.

Jade M Loren (00:10:20) - for instance, you've got the image of a broom turned upside down, I think, when you want people to leave. And so it's kind of like the symbol of that. People do it a lot, just like, oh, please let me have a good day today, or just kind of speaking aloud and thinking about what they want their day to look like. you've also got cleaning, cleaning windows. A lot of people, just the act of getting rid of stuff and cleansing an area is literally clearing stagnant, negative energy away from the space. It's the simplest form that you can do. And you know the feeling when it's all fresh and gleaming and it's like, oh, it just feels so nice. It's a lot of the time. Witchcraft is a feeling, and it's even if you go out in nature and you just think, oh, that's a beautiful bird. Oh, that's you know, you notice triple numbers a lot of the time, which I think is more commonly known as angel numbers.

Jade M Loren (00:11:02) - And I know a few people who aren't really witchy, but they go, you know, that's the fourth time I've seen a red bear. It must mean something because I as a child, I used to have a red bear. So it's all the synchronicities that are coming out and you don't necessarily have to actively go, I'm going to be a witch today. It's just sort of something I think that is either within you or it isn't.

Hazel Jones (00:11:24) - When Mark Easterbrook gets to the pale horse and he speaks with the three witches, he discovers that each of them seem to have an area of expertise. Would you say that is true for most witches? That they focus on one specific skill?

Jade M Loren (00:11:38) - Yes. maybe not in the literal way that Christy depicts it, but definitely witches have their niches. there are some who like to use the labels of an eclectic, which I'm a kitchen witch hedge, which, you know, that all of these different identities, some which is just preferred to work with them. some witches prefer to work and put their intentions spelled into food, which is more along the kitchen witch area.

Jade M Loren (00:12:10) - Some witches don't really bother with any of that, and they just kind of go, I'm eclectic or just I'm just a witch. Take me as I am, that kind of thing. And I definitely fall on that side of things because there's not a specific way I do my practice.

Hazel Jones (00:12:25) - So now, just like Mark Easterbrook, we have met our which has it helped him understand what's going on at the Pale Horse. Let's find out in part two. During the investigation, it is revealed that there was a witness who claims to have seen a man following Father Gorman on the night that he was murdered. The witness is local chemist Zachariah Osborne. It is later revealed that the man that Zachariah Osborne said he saw following Father Gorman is a very wealthy man called Mr. Venables, who seems to have a lot of money and no reasonable reason to have it. He is also a wheelchair user, but Mr. Osborne believes he doesn't really need to use it and is faking his illness. Mark starts to build up a picture of the Pale Horse being a place where you can pay to have somebody killed, but who is behind all of it.

Hazel Jones (00:13:30) - Is it the three witches? Is it Mr. Venables? Is it none of these people at all? Mark must race against the clock to find out who is behind all of these horrific deaths before it is too late. One of the witches, Miss Theresa Gray, is described in the story as being tall, slightly masculine and wearing a tweed coat and a skirt. This has kind of gone against the traditional image that's projected by the Halloween companies as witches in black, with a pointed hat and a broom. What can you tell us about that traditional outfit?

Jade M Loren (00:14:09) - Black. If you use it in candle magic, for instance, colour is very much a thing in candle magic. so you have black candles which are for protection, to repel negativity, to absorb anything that may have been sent your way. So similarly with the black. that is something that is I think was just kind of depicted accidentally. so somebody may correct me if I'm wrong there, but from my understanding, it was just noted that, you know, witches were shown in black, but actually it is one of the most spiritual colours because it creates a boundary.

Jade M Loren (00:14:44) - And creating a boundary is very much a spiritual practice in mine and many other witches eyes. just to make sure that everything is safe and you're not kind of being imposed upon in a sort of way. and similarly, the depiction of the like the black which is hat it was just like a triangle to kind of receive and connect to the divine. It's sort of like a pyramid sort of thing. So we want to receive information, but obviously that kind of got twisted a little bit over time. So yeah, there's various different things. but yeah, black is definitely for protection and making sure that you repel and negativity.

Hazel Jones (00:15:21) - So I think when a lot of people think about which is they probably imagine the broom, the hat wearing black, which we've spoken about. I would think that the next thing that they would mention would be the cat or the familiar. And in the book they're talking about the witches and how they sort of did things to avoid making them cross. And one of the things is it says children are told not to tease your cat.

Hazel Jones (00:15:55) - So is this is this a thing to do which is really hard familiars, or is that something that's kind of been hyped up and drummed up and and really isn't actually true?

Jade M Loren (00:16:07) - No, I don't know where that originated from, but my Lord, if I have not seen any witch without some kind of animal next to them, it's just one of those things that it feels like, because we try and respect nature and we work with it so much and we're quite well, I'm not, again, not speaking for all witches, but I think we're quite in tune with our energies and empathetic, we do connect with nature and animals quite a bit. And that nature response to that. I know in my experience, I've always had a cat next to me. my I call my familia Bella. every time I get my tarot cards out, every time I do something like a meditation or something, she will come and announce herself and sit next to me. It's like she knows I don't even have to do.

Jade M Loren (00:16:54) - I mean, I'm in the same room as I do all that right now, and she's nowhere near me because she knows I'm not actually opening the cards as soon as I go. Okay, let me pick up a deck. She will come in. So I think it's just this intuitive knowing and we like the company of animals. I really do get comfort from them. And, you know, I do feel like our lives are made richer by the company of animals. But also, I think, again, there may be a slight correlation between which is only in cats because it's quite a feminine animal or associated with femininity, and which is why in a lot of media now, cats can be used as a joke of, oh, you could use a cat lady. And it's that sort of feeling of, oh, we know, oh, do we just prefer cats to you who would like to call us crazy? So it's that sort of thing. But yeah I. We just nature responds to nurture and that kind of thing.

Jade M Loren (00:17:43) - So yeah if you're kind to an animal, it will know and it will repay you for that. So it knows energy.

Hazel Jones (00:17:48) - The three witches at the Pale Horse are all females. And when I've had a look at some of the forums and other bits to do with witchcraft, it does seem quite female central. But is it possible for a man to to be a witch?

Jade M Loren (00:18:09) - Oh, which is a gender neutral term? Absolutely. it's not like to be called a wizard like Harry Potter or a warlock or anything like that. there's. I'm trying to remember his name. Now, there's a gentleman on TikTok who is a witch, and he says, I am a witch. And, he's an absolutely very soft spoken individual who absolutely has no quarrel with saying I am a witch because I think because blacksmiths are going going back into history a little bit, we're a proper trade and the women would just probably put to one side. And, you know, the olden days, the association with witchcraft being mainly witches has just stemmed from witches, women gaining a lot of power in themselves.

Jade M Loren (00:18:51) - Women aren't really scared of going into themselves and looking at the shadow part of themselves, or accessing it in a power or, you know, that sort of exploration of spirituality. I've been in many mediumship, meditation circles, that kind of thing, where the majority of them are women because I think from a young age, you know, males unfortunately stayed away from intuition and stayed away from emotion and tuning in to anything that could be called other. And again, that's an issue that we have to deal with. but it's something that I do feel is kind of opening up a lot more. And, you know, the men that I've seen, they don't care about calling themselves, which if they want to be which they will be a witch. And again, it's not a gender neutral term. Anybody can call themselves a witch.

Hazel Jones (00:19:34) - In the book, one of the witches, a lady called Sybil, speaks about how she first got into witchcraft. And she says, I was always attracted to the occult.

Hazel Jones (00:19:44) - Even as a child, I realized that I had unusual powers. How did you. Jade? How did you realize that witchcraft was something that perhaps you needed to explore a bit further?

Jade M Loren (00:19:57) - I started calling myself a witch only about 8 or 9 years ago. because until then, I didn't actually realize that it was a thing. I grew up thinking, like many of the people that existed in storybooks, that it was Harry Potter, that it was, the worst witch that it was, you know, all these little things in media and practical magic. I was obsessed with that film. I just really wanted to be a witch. but I'd always had a spiritual family, and I'd always believed in something more out there. I don't know whether it was because I was born a Scorpio. If you believe in astrology or whether it was just because I was wired that way. but when I finally discovered that there was such a thing as witchcraft and people actually did practice it, and it just kind of seemed inevitable that I would find this path and choose to walk on it.

Jade M Loren (00:20:50) - It was something that I always believed in spirits, ghosts. I always believed in the power of nature. I always felt connected to nature. I was happiest out in the garden, playing amongst the plants and talking to the trees. That was me as a child. And it wasn't until I went to. To New Zealand. It was supposed to be for two weeks. I actually ended up staying for six months. that I found so many synchronicities. My roommate that I ended up with was a tarot reader. She went to meditation. She did a lot of stuff. we're still friends to this day, but it was a very odd feeling, for I didn't realize until I came home how much stacked up I was in line at the cinema, made friends with somebody, friended her on Facebook, and then she ended up being a witch. And I was like, oh, cool. I didn't even know that was a thing. I decided to take up meditation. I ended up finding a spot in front of a felled tree.

Jade M Loren (00:21:44) - and I took a photograph of the carving, and I ended up realizing afterwards that it was a pentagram, and I was like, oh, this is weird. And I naturally started when I was over there just speaking aloud and seeing results happen. So I, for instance, I was being, when I realized I actually had to stay in New Zealand. I was I need a place to stay. I found the perfect room, and I was desperate to have this room because it was cheaper. It was in a lovely area and I just went out. I looked up at the moon, and I remember clearly to say, I want this house, I want this room. I would I just please, please, please, however you need to arrange it, just let me have this room. And, there was about 50 other people vying for the room, and I got it. And I don't know whether that was just because he liked me more. I don't know, but it just felt like it was meant to be.

Jade M Loren (00:22:33) - And then there was lots of synchronicities similar to that, and it was kind of every day there was proving to me that there was something more, and it was responding to what I had decided or started to do, and it carried on. When I came back to England, I and then listed in so many classes in my local witchy shop that I didn't even knew existed here. And I think about four nights a week I would go there and learn about crystals, the history of witchcraft, everything. And again, I was bowled over that you actually do this. You actually put the little herbs in the bottle and the thing and the incense and you do the whatnot. And I was just mesmerized by it. And the amount of thing, I think sometimes you only know what's right for you when it's shown and proven to you, and you can go and dip your toe into the water, but it's up to you whether you want to swim in it. And I just went, yay and cannonball and just let it go.

Hazel Jones (00:23:24) - So it's now part of the show where we look at a true crime case from around the same time that the book was published. And today we're looking at the case of the Bollington bug. During the 1960s, workers at the John Hudlin Laboratories fell victim to a mysterious illness. Speculation about the cause ranged from water contamination, radioactivity from a nearby disused airfield, or simply a virus. However, unbeknownst to them, the actual source of their illness was the assistant storekeeper. A man called Graham. Jung young was a bit of a loner, and he had a fascination with war, chemistry, the Nazis and famous murderers. It was clear he had a dark and dangerous obsession with poison. Later, it was discovered that he would obtain supplies of poisonous substances like antimony and thallium from a London chemist. Jung's duties at the laboratory included collecting drinks from the tea trolley and bringing them to the storeroom, which allowed him to specifically target individuals for their poisoning. He would slip the poison into the tea or coffee of his co-workers, particularly focusing on the immediate colleagues in the storeroom.

Hazel Jones (00:25:00) - The victims would experience symptoms such as vomiting, stomach pains, nausea, and diarrhea. These symptoms initially perplex the employers, deleting them to the illness being dubbed the Buffington bug. Graham Young's behavior at work was described as unpredictable. He often kept to himself and could be surly, but on other days he appeared a lot more cheerful. During breaks, he would sit alone, engrossed in books related to his favorite subjects. Despite his reserved nature, he would occasionally engage in conversation with his preferred topics, such as the Nazi Party and famous murderers. As the poisonings continued, suspicions eventually fell on Graham Young and his dark secret was uncovered, but it was not before several individuals had fallen victim to his deadly actions. From our true crime story, you may have made a connection with our story of the Pale Horse. Yes. That's right. Thallium poisoning was to blame. But who was the murderer? Was it the witches at the Pale Horse? We hear at a bit of a Christie. Never want to give away the name of the murderer, because we want to inspire you to read the book for yourself, if you haven't already.

Hazel Jones (00:26:35) - So now we hope that you enjoy reading the last little bit of the Pale Horse, and perhaps you will guess who really is behind all of these sinister deaths. Some of the main characters are discussing, Macbeth, the Scottish play, and they're talking about their idea of witches, and they say, so your idea of the witches is three old Scottish crones with second sight who practice their arts in secret, muttering their spells around a cauldron. All spells real. Is there something that you can do? You can put a potion together. Is that something that really does exist? Or again, is that something that has kind of been created in folklore and spells are not, in fact, real spells?

Jade M Loren (00:27:31) - Start the moment you think about them, the moment they are kind of conceived. so for instance, if you go, I would like to do a spell for money. It starts building up the ether. It. I have to say that not all witches do spells. they just utilize the energy and intention, for instance, putting their intention to coffee making that, you know, their thing or, some of them create a simmer pot, which is like, creating energy and scents throughout the home to invoke particular, emotion or, change or something like that.

Jade M Loren (00:28:10) - But spells are. There is a hot debate about spells as to whether you need ingredients or whether it's just intention only, and I am firmly in the camp of it is both. But I also want to say is that witchcraft is not separate to science. we do believe in science. We do believe in the power of science. I believe science will one day explain what witchcraft is. I do think that we'll be able to do that is already kind of doing that. but what spells are is energy and change and every single ingredient that you have, whether basil, cinnamon rice, it represents something. And it also has a vibration of something. We are all vibrations. And what witches do kind of invoke and input their intention into these ingredients. So for instance, for a money spell, you might say with the cinnamon, you will bring in attract money and look into my life with this basil. It will also be fruitful. It will have a lot of potential and growth to come through with the rice.

Jade M Loren (00:29:09) - It represents always having food in the house and always being able to eat with the salt. It's for protection. So I'm going to put salt in this spell as well, because I want my money to be protected and myself to be protected. Yeah it is. It can be as simple or as dramatic as you want it to be. It's not always in the movies. for instance, with a thousand candles lit and turning your house into a fire hazard.

Hazel Jones (00:29:33) - I think in the book there may be quite a few, characters who have preconceptions of witches, and Mark Easterbrook certainly has something in his mind where he is a little bit dismissive of witches at first and thinks that perhaps it's a little bit of nonsense. And then as the plot progresses, he realizes, oh, you know, maybe there is something in this. Is there other misconceptions that we as the general public are kind of getting wrong? All the things that sort of irk you like, no, that's that you've got that wrong. That's totally not how it is.

Hazel Jones (00:30:14) - Is there anything that you could kind of put right for us now?

Jade M Loren (00:30:19) - We're not evil. We're not green. And we don't all have big noses with warts on. but also, I think the thing that annoys me is that I kind of roll my eyes. Now, I don't really go, oh my gosh, that's so. No, no, no, I'm writing a complaint. It's more like a oh really? Again? Pentacles and pentagrams will not summon the devil. They're not a symbol of the devil or Satan. In fact, in witchcraft, we don't really identify heaven and hell. That is. That is not something that typically. I mean, there are Christian witches actually, that may do have that element in their practice, but as a rule, we don't follow that. so if Celtic people who were doing witchcraft didn't really summon the devil because it only came in, in with Christianity, that kind of feeling of it. The pentacle can't possibly be used for that in the first place.

Jade M Loren (00:31:15) - It's actually a symbol of protection. It's the five points. Earth, air, water, fire and spirit. And it's to unify those elements. And so many times I see it going, oh, we've released a demon with the pentagram. And I'm like, oh, wow, how unique.

Hazel Jones (00:31:33) - In the story of the Pale Horse. They talk about the, intent to will somebody to die. So it's not a case that they're kind of making it happen. They're just putting that idea there that, you know, you're going to will somebody's to die. Obviously we've talked about intent in this interview. So I know that is something that happens in the witchcraft community. There is intent and things. But obviously you try and use those things from what you've said, Jade, for for positive reasons, you know, willing something good to happen, is there ever a case where a witch does something that is terrible and it is something that perhaps could, harm somebody and it, you know, the rest of the witch community say, hey, you know, come on.

Hazel Jones (00:32:28) - That's you know, that's not cricket. Let's kick this witch out of our community. Is there such a thing as a shunning or an expelling of witches, or is that not possible?

Jade M Loren (00:32:46) - there are two examples that come to mind. but not in, in, in very different ways. my mom, mom's friend, Jonas, he was a very, very good scientist, but he also belonged to a coven in Ireland. And I had no idea at the time when I learned that he was also a witch. I was just bowled over because I was so happy that a man, a science could also be in a coven witch. And, he decided to leave that community. and it just he just felt a bit concerned by behaviours within that community. And he left and he was attacked for doing so. He has had incredible migraines. They they were not very nice people. so he was ostracized and attacked for standing up to them and leaving. so there are, you know, in every single community there are darker apples than there are ripe ones and stuff like that.

Jade M Loren (00:33:46) - for instance, on TikTok, where I know there's a big whole debate about cancel culture and stuff, but community, what they called creators, TikTok creators, the most I've seen on that is people. Calling witches and practitioners out on. Heinous behaviour, such as faking things for money and trying to scam people and, especially one. Well, I think it was one lady who was very, very racist and unapologetic about it as well. And they were just like, this is very not good. please stop and just don't keep doubling down on this because it's not good. So in that respect, I do think that. You know, I mean, I can't really speak for covens and witches because I am more of a solitary practitioner. I've never really been in a coven, but what I understand is that if somebody is getting a little bit more to the point of a dodgy behavior, for instance, if they're if they're kind of getting hyped up on power or they want to have negative things happen, or they're trying to use what they have in a very manipulative, nasty way, causing harm to others.

Jade M Loren (00:35:03) - Whether you follow the threefold law or not, it will find you in the end in 2022.

Hazel Jones (00:35:09) - The First Minister for Scotland, who was then Nicola Sturgeon, issued an apology for the witch trials that happened many, many years ago. How do you and the witch community feel about that apology? Is it enough?

Jade M Loren (00:35:26) - I believe it's a nice gesture, particularly because Scotland, even now, has such a rich history of folk practitioners and magic and things like it's steeped in witchy history, the amount of legends and myths and tales that are woven into the tapestry of Scotland. It's just incredible. And I do think it was quite nice to have that sort of recognition. anybody who comes across and apologizes for historical events is, I think, taking a step forward to writing some wrongs. I think it's almost part of Scotland's DNA, the magical side of things, from what I understand, from speaking to Scottish witches. And I actually wish more people would apologise and recognise the prejudice that has happened instead of ignore it. I mean, you could apply that to many different things today.

Hazel Jones (00:36:16) - Well, Jade, thank you so much for that. It has been an absolute pleasure to speak to you today here on a bit of a Christy. I'm sure some of our listeners will want to follow up from this and maybe follow you on social media, or contact you in some way about your tarot readings or your editing abilities, etc., if they wanted to. How should they find you?

Jade M Loren (00:36:43) - Well, foolishly, I have, different ones. So if you're interested in following me on Twitter, about anything that I write or my sometimes quite open publishing opinions, the handles to find me there is at Jade M Lauren. So that's Jade, then m and then l o r e n. If you'd like to follow me on Instagram, I have two accounts there, not me, I have Jen writes, which again is my bookish area, and I also have Wellington underscore witch, which is my tarot area. And if you just want to follow me for some giggles and tarot and spirituality stuff, you can find me at, Wellington Witch on TikTok.

Jade M Loren (00:37:27) - And if you'd like to just see if sometimes I do post on YouTube, it's Wellington which on there as well.

Hazel Jones (00:37:34) - Well, that brings us to the end of another a bit of a crusty podcast episode. I certainly have enjoyed myself, especially speaking with Jade and learning a lot about witchcraft, but also the interesting true crime case which we covered. We will be posting links to all of Jade's social media in the podcast description, so make sure you go and check those out. Next week we'll be looking at the Agatha Christie book body in the library and we will be joined by an ex Cheshire Police detective who will be talking us through the crime scene. But from the point of view of modern day policing, if you'd like to keep in touch with us and track which episodes are coming next, our social media is at a bit of a Christie and you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube. We also are on all major podcast platforms. I'm Hazel Jones and this is a bit of a Christie.