Episode 4 - The Body in the Library

Prepare to be gripped in Episode 4 as we dissect Agatha Christie's iconic thriller, "The Body in the Library." Join us as an ex-Cheshire detective guides us through the haunting crime scene at Gossington Hall, exploring the evolution of CSI practices since Christie's era. Delve into the tantalizing question: Would the indomitable Miss Marple pass muster in today's investigative landscape? 

Plus, journey with us into the chilling true crime realm, as we unravel the enigmatic murder of librarian Emily Abernathy—an unsettling echo of Christie's fiction. What secrets lurk within the library's hallowed halls? Was Emily a target, or merely caught in the crosshairs of fate? 

Tune in for a riveting exploration of mystery, intrigue, and the shifting sands of class roles that will leave you on the edge of your seat!

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Transcript

Hazel Jones (00:00:02) - Hello and welcome to episode four of ABitOfAChristie. Today we are going to use the words of Agatha Christie herself to introduce the show. Our book today is The Body in the library, which the Queen of crime described as in the manner of a cookery recipe. Add the following ingredients a tennis pro, a young dancer, an artist, a girl guide, a dance hostess, etc. and serve up alla miss Marple. We will be examining the crime scene at Gossington Hall with an axe police detective, and also exploring a true crime case which also took place in a library. I'm Hazel Jones and this is a bit of a Christie. The body in the library was first published in 1942, in the USA in February and the UK in May as the book hit the shelves of the shops and libraries. The world was halfway through a war which would change the face of history forever. But what was the world like in 1942? As always, we explore the world in which Agatha Christie was writing.

Hazel Jones (00:01:24) - 1942, was the birthplace of many life changing events. On the 20th of January, leading officials in the Nazi German government met in a suburb of Berlin called Wannsee. The house was originally owned by Friedrich Minou, a wealthy German industrialist who committed fraud against the Berlin Gas Works. From his prison cell, he sold the property to a group whose job was to acquire buildings for the SS. It was around the dining table of this villa that a small group of men decided on the plan to enact the Final Solution. One of the leaders of this meeting and the chief of the Reich Security Main Office, Reinhard Heydrich, was also assassinated by two Free Czech agents this year, and the town of Lidice was liquidated in response. This caused the death of 340 men, women and children. 1942 was also the year that US carmakers switched from vehicle production to making war materials. Pan American Airlines was the first commercial airline to schedule a flight around the world. Famous boxer Muhammad Ali was born as Cassius Clay. The BBC launched French language broadcasting in Canada.

Hazel Jones (00:02:49) - The Battle of Stalingrad was a huge turning point in the war, with Germany losing their influence over the East. Frank Sinatra records his first solo track. Later, American President Ronald Reagan is called up for active duty. Radio show Desert Island Discs is first broadcast. Soap rationing is introduced in the UK. Snead Colliery disaster strikes with an explosion killing 55 workers in Staffordshire. George VI is king. The Prime Minister of the UK is Winston Churchill and the president of the USA is Franklin D Roosevelt. It's morning at Gossington Hall in St Mary Mead. Owner, Dolly Bantry is dreaming of winning first place in a flower show. As the maids and other house staff create the daily symphony of morning tea drawn curtains and the house being unbolted, Dolly stirs from her slumber. She is now aware of hurried footsteps in the corridor, and her maid Mary's voice provides the final alarm, breaking any such hope of returning to the flower show for a second ribbon.

Maid (LB) (00:04:22) - Oh, mam! Mam, there's a body in the library.

Hazel Jones (00:04:27) - Her husband, Colonel Arthur Bantry, was not so sensitive to the distressed voice, and Dolly shook him awake to help her make sense of the news.

Hazel Jones (00:04:38) - Meeting the butler in the corridor, it became clear that nobody was still dreaming and that there was in fact a body in the library. Police Constable Polk is informed of the gruesome discovery by Colonel Bantry, and Dolly informs her own investigator when she telephones Miss Marple. On arriving at the hall, Miss Marple is escorted to the library to see the beautiful blonde woman lying dead on a bearskin rug. Any opposition to people parading around the crime scene is wafted away by Dolly and Constable. Paulk has no choice but to allow them in. Is this how a modern day crime scene would be run? We speak to ex-police detective Kieran James, who talks us through the process.

Kieran James (00:05:39) - My name is Kieran. I'm a former detective constable with Cheshire Police, and before that I was also a police constable for about eight years.

Hazel Jones (00:05:49) - The book that we're looking at today is The Body in the library. How do police get involved once a body is found?

Kieran James (00:05:57) - Now, approximately half a million people die in the UK every year. And clearly the the vast majority of those, there will be no police involvement at all.

Kieran James (00:06:07) - So the first, the first rung on the ladder where there would be police involvement, if something is potentially identified as being a sudden or unexplained death. Now this would normally be a case. Perhaps if it's a younger person, a person who was in good health or who wasn't expected to die any time soon. So this could include things like suicides, industrial accidents, or any sudden or unexplained death where it looks like there's going to be some sort of investigation involved. And now initially that would fall to your uniform response officers. So police constables who were not trained, trained detectives, and they are acting on behalf of the coroner at first, and because the sudden deaths will ultimately go to a coroner's court and there'll be an inquiry to establish what the cause of death was. So the police act on behalf of the coroner, essentially because they're the people with the skill sets to to do it. And their role is to gather the evidence so that the coroner's court can reach some sort of conclusion about how this person died.

Kieran James (00:07:13) - Now, so this is how this is where we see in body in the library. Poor old Constable Polk turning out on his bicycle and making his way to the location. now that saw a sudden death as part of the initial investigation, if it becomes apparent that, it's not just sudden and unexplained, but there's some sort of, foul play at hand, then that might then be escalated to the next rung of the ladder, which is being identified as a suspicious death. and this is where you'll start to see the involvement of detectives. So normally at this point, a detective constable, will attend the scene. Sometimes a detective sergeant will attend as well. and the investigation will then be looking at potentially gathering evidence for a Crown Court trial. Now, the Crown Court trial is different to the coroner's court. The coroner's court is to establish what the cause of death was, whereas the Crown Court trial will ultimately be looking to identify the suspect or suspects with a view to bringing a prosecution and the burden of evidence there.

Kieran James (00:08:21) - And the burden of proof is, is higher, where it's a suspicious death is then identified. And you would also, at this point potentially have something called a senior investigating officer appointed. And usually these will be detective inspectors or detective chief inspector, which is why you'll see a lot of fictional represented and characters on TV in particular. They're very often DCI and and that's the reason why. there'll also be additional resources put in at this point. typically you'd expect to see MIT being involved and MIT being made a major investigation team. They have more resources, they have the overtime budgets. and they can they will look at everything incredibly thoroughly.

Hazel Jones (00:09:04) - Obviously, a lot of time and effort goes into investigating a murder, but can it be financially costly as well?

Kieran James (00:09:12) - It's sad that a murder investigation today can cost about £1 million just to investigate. but the upside of that is that there's a very high detection rate on murders in the UK, normally above 90%. so the odds of getting away with a murder in the UK these days are very, very low.

Hazel Jones (00:09:30) - Is there anything that jumps out at you as being something that just couldn't possibly happen today? when you when you first see that crime scene up at Rossington Hall, we've.

Kieran James (00:09:42) - Talked about how how each level would get involved. one of the curious things that takes place in a body in the library that any sort of serving or ex-police officer would, would find quite amusing, I think, is that the the chief constable of the force is very quick to attend the scene, and he's very personally involved. And throughout the investigation, which is would certainly raise eyebrows if it were to happen today, and particularly where there's some sort of social connection between the chief Constable and the the owner of the house where the body is found.

Hazel Jones (00:10:19) - If you attended a scene and you discovered that there was a personal link to yourself, is there a procedure that you need to follow? Do you need to flag it up?

Kieran James (00:10:29) - Yes, absolutely. one of the core values of British policing is that we are what we investigate without fear or favour, and that we are impartial gathering.

Kieran James (00:10:38) - Rows of evidence. Now, human beings, it's difficult for them to be impartial if there is a personal connection. So what would happen? There is you would identify that there was a potential conflict of interest. You would raise it with your supervisor and you would say, look, you know, I know this person. I'm friends with this person. They're a member of my family. They're an ex-partner or something like that. And you would simply say, I cannot work on this case.

Hazel Jones (00:11:02) - In the body. In the library, we see one of the owners of Town Hall, Dolly Bantry, get on the telephone and call her friend Miss Marple and invite her up to the crime scene for a good look around. I'm taking it. This is something that doesn't happen today.

Kieran James (00:11:21) - No. Absolutely not. Crime scene management. Scene preservation is one of the most important parts of any investigation. you'll hear CIOs and detectives talking about golden hour principles. And this is where the first 60 minutes of an investigation, after the scene is discovered or after the crime is reported, is where the majority of your evidence, when the case gets to trial, is going to come from.

Kieran James (00:11:45) - one of the key considerations in any investigation is preserving what's called the integrity of that evidence. And something that will very likely become an issue at court is something called the provenance of any exhibits or statements that are submitted in evidence. one of the key roles of the defence, if the case gets to court, will be to try and undermine the provenance or the integrity of that evidence. So the idea that a member of the public who, you know, however esteemed or regarded, happened to be in the area, would be allowed to essentially have first dibs on a crime scene. Is is something that would would never be allowed. there's two there's two main reasons for this. The primary one that I referred to earlier is is is evidence. so we can't have people being in the scene contaminating evidence, potentially. but the second one is also to preserve the dignity of the person, the victim of the crime. They are themselves are seen, but they are also a human being, you know, with loved ones, family.

Kieran James (00:12:49) - and, you know, for that reason, it's obviously inappropriate to have anybody who isn't necessary to be coming in and looking looking at the body.

Hazel Jones (00:12:58) - This would mean, obviously, that Miss Marple wouldn't be there, and probably Dolly Bantry wouldn't be there, or Arthur. And so let's just say the police, it's just them in there. How would that crime scene start then? How would the investigation begin?

Kieran James (00:13:17) - So there are quite well-established procedures about dealing with crime scenes. As soon as the scene is set up, something called the scene log will be started. The exact time that the scene was set up, who it was set up by, and that will be filled in throughout the investigation. Until the scene is officially shut down, it will record who was there, why they were there, what time they booked into the scene, what time they booked out. If they've removed anything from the scene, it will also be forensic protective clothing that was worn by anyone that's entered the scene to prevent cross-contamination. so that the quality of the evidence is the best that it can be.

Hazel Jones (00:13:57) - The crime scene at Gottingen Hall is a library, but one that's in a private home. Are there different challenges to face when you have a crime scene that is very public? So somewhere that perhaps lots of people have been to, no cover, that sort of thing?

Kieran James (00:14:17) - Yes, absolutely. so the procedures that allow and enabled the police to lock down scenes, is established by a stated case in court. Now, the the challenge, if you've got an outdoor scene, particularly if it's in a public place, is that you're going to have a lot more people being interested in you, potentially going to be blocking off roads, preventing people from getting to work to get into houses. people don't like it. But ultimately the police have got that responsibility, to preserve the evidence in something very serious, like like a murder investigation. So there is a stated case that allows the police to do that. practically speaking, if we've got a scene outdoors, particularly if there's a human body there and it's exposed to the sun, is exposed to the weather, it's more likely, there's a higher risk rather of, of contamination.

Kieran James (00:15:08) - So this is why you'll often see the portable tents set up by crime scene investigators, to try and preserve the quality of that evidence. Back in the day, it was very, very, very common. And you do sometimes see this represented in fiction for police, police officers to put the old round bin lids over exhibits and to prevent them from blowing away, or to protect them from the rain and the sun. And again, sometimes, you know, when you're particularly when you're first on scene, you might have to do some improvisation. but most response police officers now will carry with them in their kit bags various bits of specially made equipment, things like knife tubes, evidence bags, etc. to preserve the evidence to the best quality.

Hazel Jones (00:15:51) - Placing the bin lid over the evidence is an interesting one, because this is something we've heard on the show before in episode one, and when we were looking at the story of Mrs. McGinty's dead, we had the wonderful Maggie McCallum on to talk about the murder of Alice Wiltshire, a true crime case that she has written a book about, called The Barlaston Murderer, Leslie Green.

Hazel Jones (00:16:15) - And in that there is a part of the investigation where a police officer has to put over a bin lid to preserve a bloodied footprint. So that's interesting to see that that is perhaps, a nationwide or was a nationwide procedure, or something that was quite commonly done. We now have a look at a true crime case that has a link to the body in the library at the beginning of the body in the library. Arthur Bantry reacts to the news by saying, Dolly, it's that detective story you were reading. The clue of the broken match. You know, Lord Edgbaston finds a beautiful blonde dead on the library. Hearth rug, bodies are always being found in libraries, in books. I've never known a case in real life, but sadly, there have been real life cases of murder in libraries. And as always, we are going to look at a case. From the time of the book's publication. We travelled to the town of Brian, Ohio in the USA. It is Thursday, the 19th of September, 1946.

Hazel Jones (00:17:23) - Emily Abernathy has arrived at work and she knows it will be a tiring day. It is her turn to do the late shift and lock up the library. But as the head librarian, she couldn't expect others to do it if she didn't. For months into starting her new job and moving from Tennessee, Emily was generally happy with her job, if not feeling a bit tired. The usual tasks lay ahead managing staff, helping the public, keeping the library organized and tidy, maintaining library catalogues, chasing and collecting books back and enforcing fines. Ordering and displaying new stock. Maintaining a quiet environment. The list seemed to be never ending. She took a deep breath and stepped inside the Bryan Library to begin her to do list. James Robert Engle, a 21 year old ex-servicemen, had found himself at a bit of a loose end since the end of the war. He had lost the purpose and drive that the Navy had given him. When he was at the Bryan High School. His peers described him as tall and quiet.

Hazel Jones (00:18:45) - He didn't want to follow his dad into the auto supply store job, but now he had nothing to occupy his time. Seeing the lights of the library were on, he walked inside. Perhaps there would be something to inspire him in there. Emily looked up from her desk as the young man walked in. What was it with people always coming in close to closing? He wanted to read some of the magazines which they had in the archive in the basement. She got up and wandered down the stairs to show him how to access the collection. Happy that he could now find what he was looking for. She left him, flicking through a stack of magazines. Emily, who had been a reporter for her high school paper. The population had no idea that just a few hours later, her name and picture would find their way onto the front covers of local and national press. She'd always been a busy person, from helping to arrange a silver tea party to raise funds for a Methodist church that she attended to organizing a Red cross dressing training event at Spring City High School, where she had previously worked.

Hazel Jones (00:19:59) - Education had followed her around in life. She'd been on the honour roll of Pulaski High School and achieved a Bachelor of Science degree in library science from a university. She could, however, have moments of carelessness. Only the year before, she had lost that sterling silver Air Force bracelet with her name on the front and the initials D, J, B on the back. Her interest in that marine hadn't lasted. Her work was more important, and she knew she mustn't be careless about locking up the library on time. So just before the 8:30 p.m. closing time, she headed back down the stairs to remind the gentleman that it was almost time to go. Emily had one most helpful and best all round camper at Pulaski All Girls camp in 1934, and sadly, her helpful and kind nature wouldn't benefit her in any way over the next few minutes. James. Robert Engel grabbed Emily and she screamed. He pushed her to the floor and beat and kicked her. He would eventually stab her 23 times and leave her for dead.

Hazel Jones (00:21:12) - After he left the library, he headed to the local park to wash his hands in the water pump, before going on to a bowling alley and then walking home at 10:30. Emily's fellow librarian, 20 year old Miss Janice MacLennan, noticed the library lights were still on and after telephoning Emily's home number and being unable to reach her, she summoned friend Wayne Taylor to come and search the library in more detail. Sadly, it was then that they discovered Emily's clearly lifeless body and called the police. The crime scene search had thrown up several clues a size 11 bloodied footprint and a bloody fingerprint. A description of a five foot nine man in a blue striped shirt seen near the library at the time of the incident. It didn't take long for police to identify the man as Robert James Engle, and he issued a full admission of guilt describing just how he had attacked and killed Emily. And the reason he killed her? Well, he said he just had the urge to kill. Engle, was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison.

Hazel Jones (00:22:27) - But four years later, he was moved to a state hospital for the criminally insane. Emily was buried at the Maplewood Cemetery in Pulaski. A tragic story there that has similarities to the Agatha Christie story that we are reading at the moment. We are now going to return to part two of The Body in the library. How are things going at Gottingen Hall? After discussing the case, it appears that there is only one person in Sainte Marie Mead who might have a connection to the platinum blonde Basil Blake, a man described as a very junior person rejoicing in the position of about 15th in the list of those responsible for set decorations at Glenville Studios. However, during discussions with him, his platinum blonde lady friend dramatically arrived in a sports car to put a hold on that theory. So who was the victim? The body is finally formally identified by a miss Josephine, Josie Turner, as being fellow hotel ballroom dancer and her cousin, Miss Ruby Keene. Josie asked Ruby to stand in for her on a temporary contract after she suffered a sprained ankle on a day out at the beach.

Hazel Jones (00:23:54) - Distressed, Josie cannot understand just how Ruby would have come to be found in the library of Gaston Hall. Ruby had become close to some of the guests staying at the Majestic Hotel, an affluent, elderly widower called Conway Jefferson and his daughter in law Adelaide, and her son from a previous marriage, Peter, also Conway's son in law, Mark Gaskell. Conway's wife, son and daughter had died in a plane crash and a blended family had been created from the ashes. Conway planned to adopt Ruby and bring her into the fold officially, but who killed her before the adoption could take place? Miss Marple, Dolly and Superintendent Harper travelled to the majestic to investigate. As we returned to dangers and the mystery of who killed Ruby Keene, there is more news. A Girl guide called Pamela Reeves has gone missing, and another body has been found in a blazing car in a local quarry. Is it Pamela in the car? Just how are these three events connected? Who is the killer? We hear at a bit of a.

Hazel Jones (00:25:10) - Christie will never reveal the name of the guilty party. As we want to encourage you to read or reread the book for yourself. Safe to say, if anybody can crack the case, it's Jane Marple. We leave our fictional detective and we join our real one. We re-join Kieran for the second part of his interview as he sheds a little bit more light on a modern day crime scene investigation. Before the break, we were talking about crime scene preservation. What methods of crime scene investigation are available now that weren't available when the book was published in 1942?

Kieran James (00:25:52) - I mean, forensic evidence in the last few decades, have become much more capable and much more reliable, particularly in the in the early 1990s, when you start to see a lot of DNA evidence being submitted in court. DNA is is really valuable source of evidence. And particularly when it was new, police were able to catch out a lot of criminals who hadn't hadn't experienced DNA evidence before. And also they were able to reopen a lot of old cases that hadn't been solved using that new DNA evidence with a very high reliability, to convict previously unidentified, criminals, but also to acquit a number of wrongly convicted people.

Kieran James (00:26:36) - And you do tend to see, cases being reopened. and the new DNA evidence being being, being looked at again, to get to a good to a good outcome. probably a good time now to talk about lock yards exchange principle. So this is one of the, one of my favorite quotes. lock art is seen as the sort of father of forensic science. And this is what he had to say about forensic evidence. wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark. He leaves the paint. He scratches the blood or semen. He deposits or collects. All of these and more bare mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong.

Kieran James (00:27:43) - It cannot perjure itself. It cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it can diminish its value. So this is something that investigation teams are very aware of. And you will often see teams of some forces call them scenes of crime officers. In Cheshire, they were generally referred to as CSI's crime scene investigators. You might also in a in a complex case, you might have someone called a crime scene manager, or working to try and obtain and preserve and present that forensic evidence. courts normally give quite high weight to the value of forensic evidence. For a lot of the reasons that Lockhart talks about their people get confused, people get emotional. Sometimes witnesses don't want to attend court. For whatever reason, they can be intimidated. And the forensic evidence, if it's properly obtained, is is reliable. and its integrity can be could be really helpful to the case. Conversely, however, its absence to a case will really help the defence. So if the investigators fail to find it, or if they fail to follow the procedures in preserving and presenting it, then you will often find that the defence will say, inverting that usual, idiom there's no smoke without fire.

Kieran James (00:29:04) - They'll say, there's no fire without smoke. There's no evidence against my client. Therefore you have to acquit them. so this is one of the things that, would have been very difficult in the case of the body in the library where you've got these procedures not being followed, where evidence is being secured. and then it turns out that people who shouldn't have been in the crime scene have been in the crime scene, and that the evidence hasn't been handled correctly. and this is all grist to the mill for a for a defence barrister, to undermine the prosecution case. And we've got to bear in mind that when a case goes to Crown Court, which is any serious offence, any indictable offence or series, either way, offences they're known will go to the Crown Court, and there'll be a jury and there'll be a judge and the adversarial system that operates in, in, in English law and also a lot of courts around the world operate in a similar model is you'll have a prosecutor presenting the evidence, with a view to prosecuting the the suspect say this is the person who's committed this crime.

Kieran James (00:30:09) - You will also have a defence barrister whose job is different. Their job is to present the evidence in such a way as to introduce an element of doubt. Now, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The defence doesn't have to prove anything. They have a they need only introduce an element of reasonable doubt. and the jury should then conclude that the suspect is is not guilty. So the prosecution has got to prove that beyond reasonable doubt that the person in the dock has done the thing that they've been charged with. that's different to the coroner's court that I was talking about earlier, where they're not apportioning blame, but they will operate on the balance of probability. So is it more likely than not that this is what's happened? But in the Crown Court, it's a very high burden of proof. And that's why these procedures have have got to be adhered to. And they've got to be carried out perfectly so that there is no reasonable doubt about the quality of the evidence.

Hazel Jones (00:31:10) - At Rossington Hall. We definitely have a suspicious death.

Hazel Jones (00:31:14) - How would we go about identifying who that person is?

Kieran James (00:31:19) - So what we see in the body, in the library is that a member of the victim's family is brought in, to carry out the identification procedure, and that is still a technique that is used. it it's perhaps not the best way of doing it as as we see in this particular story, it's upsetting for the relatives to see the body in a way that it's not really been prepared the way an undertaker would be. but there also can be some reliability issues. Again, as we see with this case, we're relying on a very emotional person and looking at a body, and bodies always look slightly different to a living person. It's difficult to put your finger on why that is, even if it's even if it's a, you know, a relatively fresh body that you're looking at, the essence of the person is is often not there. They often look different. so that's the technique that, is relied on in, in the Miss Marple story.

Kieran James (00:32:16) - fingerprints and dental records are two things that would have been available at the time this story is set. fingerprints have been around since the late Victorian era. The problem there is, in order for fingerprints to have any value, you have to have something to compare them to. So unless you've had a brush with the law previously and you've had your fingerprints taken, and certainly at that time, the the fingerprint evidence is not going to be that useful. Now, dental records again are very reliable. People's teeth are unique. and that that evidence can be, can be very, a very good indication of who the person is that you've found. You compare their dental work with the dentistry and the in the body. And that's, that's normally quite reliable. Again, if you're looking back into the past, this this particular story set in 1942, this is before the creation of the NHS. And very likely the average person is not getting a lot of dentistry work done because it's expensive. the upper classes potentially will have private dentists, you know, Harley Street or back in the day on Savile Row, you have your, you had your, very prestigious medical professionals down there.

Kieran James (00:33:33) - But the average person is probably not having a lot of dentist dentistry work doing. In fact, in some parts of England in the early 20th century, it was considered a good investment to have all of your teeth taken out to save you. The save you the trouble of having to look after your own teeth. what we have now, obviously, since the creation of the of the NHS, and better record keeping, there's more there's a bigger database of things to compare against. But still, most people, the police will not hold records of everyone's fingerprints and DNA. That would be a that would be a pretty significant, breach of your civil liberties. And even if you have had a brush with the law and had your had your fingerprints, DNA, etc. taken, they can the police can only retain that for a certain period of time depending on the outcome of that investigation. So if you are arrested, have your forensic details taken and then you're ultimately not charged with anything, the police have to delete, delete that that evidence pretty quickly.

Kieran James (00:34:39) - but where we've got good dental records, where we've got a DNA profile already, then we can, we can say with a pretty high degree of accuracy that the body we've found is, is the person in.

Hazel Jones (00:34:50) - The body in the library, we see more traditional policing methods to gain evidence and information, such as going around the village and talking to people who live there. Is that something that still happens today?

Kieran James (00:35:03) - Yes, absolutely. there's there's no substitute for good old fashioned police work. Having a determined, motivated, qualified detective or team of detectives going out and doing all of all of the kind of inquiries that that we see being carried out, in, in the body, in the library, although perhaps not in the way that they're, that they're done. so we were talking the police about realistic or reasonable lines of inquiry. and that will include, your house to house inquiries. So doing a good old fashioned Dornoch speaking to the neighbours. You know what was happening last night between these hours? Did you see anything? Did you hear anything? What do you know about the people that live next door? And you can that can get that can provide a really good quality evidence and also bring about new lines of inquiry.

Kieran James (00:35:53) - So you might have a witness say, oh, well, actually, exactly that time I saw this vehicle leaving, leaving the area that you might not know about before. And it's like, okay, well, tell me more about that vehicle. And, it'll lead you in new, new, new avenues to pursue. So, yeah. Witnesses house, the house. One of the things that we rely on a lot these days that wouldn't have been available back in 1942, is CCTV evidence. So a British person knows that there is a lot of CCTV in our in our country now. Some of it's run by councils. Some of it is, private CCTV. So ordinary members of the public, can acquire their own, their own cameras and fit them to their properties. A lot of businesses will have them. If you've ever been in a supermarket, you'll know there's CCTV cameras everywhere. And. And that could be really useful, in filling in the gaps on the investigation, depending on the quality of it.

Kieran James (00:36:48) - and if the camera was switched on, if, if it's pointing in the right direction, but also whether the system has the ability to retain that information for a long period of time. It's not always saved, but one of the one of the first things that will take place in the investigation is they'll be what's called the CCTV trawl. And that will involve an investigator getting his getting his or her feet on the ground, walking around the area looking for cameras. And then right, where is that camera? Who's got that footage? Let's go and get it. And you're going to get that as soon as possible. Because some systems record over themselves or they don't, they don't retain for very long. And that comes back to that golden hour principle that I was talking about earlier. one of the other major lines of inquiry that we should talk about now and that we see represented in this story, is your is your suspect interviews and questioning of suspects. And so this is done in a very informal way.

Kieran James (00:37:41) - in, in Christie's work, where, where we have the officers just basically turning up at a potential suspects house knocking on the door, saying, oh, can we have a chat? you know, what's your involvement in this case? Where were you at this time and place? and this perhaps might have been more common back in the 1940s, but certainly since the introduction of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act in 1984, these procedures have been really sharpened up. so if you were looking to run a gold standard investigation, as soon as the investigative investigator has what's called reasonable grounds to suspect that person may be involved in this crime as a suspect, then that interview should be being carried out at a police station. Generally speaking, it should be audio recorded. Nowadays, we're seeing a lot of audio and video recorded interviews. and crucially, the suspect has to have been given their rights, including their right to free and independent legal advice, which every suspect is entitled to, whether they can have a duty solicitor come out or they can request their own solicitor at their own expense if they wish.

Kieran James (00:38:50) - But every everyone who's interviewed by the police now, will have a right to free and independent legal advice at the point of, at the point of the interview, there are 1 or 2 quite narrowly defined circumstances where that's not allowed, where there's a risk to life or limb, where delaying the interview could result in someone losing, losing their life. but at that point, you would have to get authorisation from a fairly senior police officer or superintendent, typically, and you'd have to make a case for why you were denying them that, right?

Hazel Jones (00:39:21) - Listeners know that at a bit of a Christie, we never reveal the name of the actual murderer. But what is clear early on in the book is that Basil Blake becomes a person of interest. And that's not just for the police, that's also for Miss Marple and Dolly Bantry. Is this something that you have to be careful of, sort of zoning in on one person?

Kieran James (00:39:44) - One of the first things that you are taught when you train as a detective is to be aware of cognitive bias.

Kieran James (00:39:52) - and that's where the investigation starts to really focus in just on one small part and lose, lose sight of the bigger picture. And sometimes you see the Sio will get fixated on a particular suspect for whatever reason. and the focus of the investigation then starts to be drawn towards that person, to the exclusion of other lines of inquiry. and cognitive bias can, can, can really do serious harm to an investigation. and it's, you know, it's human nature sometimes to become fixated on this, which is why it's good to have a team of people, different perspectives, looking at all lines of inquiry, because that cognitive bias can lead to unsafe convictions. Where the where the police. Tend to focus too much on on one person to the exclusion of other things. the the other thing is that, we should talk about the Criminal Procedures and Investigation Act of 1996, and this is legislation that was brought in, that has two main focuses. The first is that it creates a legal responsibility on investigators to pursue all lines of inquiry, whether they point towards or away from the suspect.

Kieran James (00:41:14) - so that is really built into policing now, is that you've got to be, to be broad and you've got to pursue all lines of inquiry, regardless of where they lead you.

Hazel Jones (00:41:26) - So there we have it. Listeners, the challenge for those of you who haven't read The Body in the library is to not just focus on one person, maybe Basil Blake. Have a look at the other characters and see if there are any connections there. Thank you so much for listening to episode four of A bit of a Christie. We hope you enjoyed it. If you want to keep in contact with us, we are on most social media platforms and you can search for us by typing in the handle at a bit of a Christie. We are also available to listen to on most podcast hosts. Well, that's all we have for today and we look forward to seeing you next time where we once again evaluate an Agatha Christie novel. Well, a bit of a Christie anyway.